Post by Caveboy0 on Aug 31, 2011 1:29:33 GMT -5
So a lot of fans agree that X3 was a shallow shell of what the movie franchise once was (or in my opinion of how great X2 was)
One of the complaints is the Dark Phoenix herself who didn't amount much of anything other then looking damaged, fallowing around magneto, and killing key characters.
It's probably the most famous X-Men story and for good reason. Jean Grey is almost a character of ridicule. she can move stuff and read minds. not that threatening and not as good as Xavier. why should we care? Well Phoenix is why you should care. Her powers expand exponentially and becomes one badass sexy bitch.
To start I have to mention how I was a big time viewer of the X-Men cartoon. I watched it so much I was like a little 8 year old fanboy seeing the first X-men movie. "Why isn't Beast the doctor of the X-men?"
More importantly by the time X3 was coming around I caught onto the reruns of the Dark Phoenix adaption. Personally I found it really badass. I can't say I understood all of it exactly, but I knew Jean "died" and came back evil and more powerful. For a 14 year old that's pretty badass.
At the time I really liked X3 and didn't know why people didn't like it, which is actually a common opinion. From what I saw it had some shocking developments and some really hard hitting conclusions especially Wolverine mercy killing Jean. But in retrospect you see a flaw of the series by leaving Cyclops with little story and killing him off like he's nothing. Xavier is killed without thought and while it looks the same it doesn't feel the same. The Phoenix story isn't even a main problem since its only part of the story, but I suppose that is the problem in itself.
So all his hubbub about one comic story. How different and better can it possibly be? Quality goes to speculation, but boy is it different.
The #1 difference is the Phoenix Saga as a whole is not as rushed as either the movie or tv adaption. Jean does return, but not automatically evil. It's given some dark foreshadowing which makes it all the more exciting. The question was not if, but when she would snap. I the comic went on a number of issues with just Phoenix so it takes a while for it to get into Dark Phoenix.
The cool part of this story is that its two stories into one. The first story that takes up half of the Dark Phoenix Saga finds the X-men facing off against the Hellfire Club. A handy defeat and pushed to the edge finds Jean using the limits of her power. Also thrown in a sub plot of manipulation by a mutant illusionist. You have a Jean Grey pushed mentally, emotionally, and physically. Yet still she doesn't fully crack completely. THe pacing is wildly different and makes it simply better. Jean's slow motions towards a darker side feels very natural. Phoenix and Jean feel one and the same.
Besides the pacing another big difference is that Xaviers tampering with her mind is negligible. Its didn't happen when she was little and doesn't sound like a major point at all. Its hinted at, but never made clear. Which comes into the biggest problem with this story. Glorious Retcons. Oh how you can ruin many things. So the bitch is this. Jean Grey wasn't evil she was possessed by a Phoenix Force. Not her actions at all blah blah blah. This was all dealt later in the late 80s. Bull fucking shit. Marvel lost some quality management after the 70's. Spider-Man was one of the lucky ones to get a revival.
Sorry for my mid rant. Back to the story. The comic is very grounded to begin with and feels natural. The playing around of themes of manipulation and personal freedom is when it is at its best. Where sort of falls apart is the confliction of endings. The writer wanted to make Phoenix a cosmic Avenger like Thor, but the other editors thought she was too powerful so they made her evil. Very evil. She apparently early on as Phoenix restarted some powerful alien thingy and saved the universe. Now she wants to reclaim that power and attempts it in a star. Ends up destroying a planet near by. It becomes clear her powers were altered and not there from the beginning. The themes are bleeding away and we are left with a sci fi story through and through.
By the end of it it feels like Jean being cured is a farce. A cop out. Like Batman forgiving Jean Paul Valley. But no she was going to be punished for her crimes. I thought the story was going for a wild dip as it already has, but it was a really great way to conclude the saga.
It provided open platform of consideration of what has really happened. An inner trial for Jean for each character. Some plot device honor battle is used and the X-men have to fight on the moon blah blah blah it was all a ruse so Jean could get weak and kill herself.
Kind of dark if it wasn't on the moon and with some space laser.
THe series does have Wolverine with a kill strike, but refusing it. Jean's self sacrifice was the right idea, but presented wrong. All in all leaving me kind of preferring the movie version of an ending.
I'm a little torn on this comic. It started off different and better then I expected and had some great design to it all, but became something else only to not be at all. My personal concept of Phoenix in the end is what I prefer to any adaption.
I like the struggle Jean has of who she is. I like the pacing of her turn. I like the more inventive nature of her powers. Using mental and physical attacks.
But i prefer the idea that Xavier dampened her mind at a young age then to her just getting it with cosmic rays. it has a whole new layer to her character. I can see how Scott and Jean connect. Both having uncontrollable power. I can see a bond through their problems.
out of the 3 i've experienced the story though the original int he end is the best of the bunch. The pacing and character work is far superior. Phoenix is the focus as should be, but given the time early on to really build it up.
In the mean time i was able to really connect with the x-men characters like collussus and nightcrawler. wolverine wasn't a huge focus but what we know of him is all in tact.
Does this make me think the movie is a travesty more then it is? No actually. I appreciate the newer elements to dark phoenix. With some more development it could create something really amazing.
If Vaughn continues First Class I think we can have a retcon of our own. Give Scott more attention. Create a tragic foreshadowing for Jean. He, getting a little carried away.
All I'm saying is that the decades since the comic it still has context. It's not perfect, but it is classic.
One of the complaints is the Dark Phoenix herself who didn't amount much of anything other then looking damaged, fallowing around magneto, and killing key characters.
It's probably the most famous X-Men story and for good reason. Jean Grey is almost a character of ridicule. she can move stuff and read minds. not that threatening and not as good as Xavier. why should we care? Well Phoenix is why you should care. Her powers expand exponentially and becomes one badass sexy bitch.
To start I have to mention how I was a big time viewer of the X-Men cartoon. I watched it so much I was like a little 8 year old fanboy seeing the first X-men movie. "Why isn't Beast the doctor of the X-men?"
More importantly by the time X3 was coming around I caught onto the reruns of the Dark Phoenix adaption. Personally I found it really badass. I can't say I understood all of it exactly, but I knew Jean "died" and came back evil and more powerful. For a 14 year old that's pretty badass.
At the time I really liked X3 and didn't know why people didn't like it, which is actually a common opinion. From what I saw it had some shocking developments and some really hard hitting conclusions especially Wolverine mercy killing Jean. But in retrospect you see a flaw of the series by leaving Cyclops with little story and killing him off like he's nothing. Xavier is killed without thought and while it looks the same it doesn't feel the same. The Phoenix story isn't even a main problem since its only part of the story, but I suppose that is the problem in itself.
So all his hubbub about one comic story. How different and better can it possibly be? Quality goes to speculation, but boy is it different.
The #1 difference is the Phoenix Saga as a whole is not as rushed as either the movie or tv adaption. Jean does return, but not automatically evil. It's given some dark foreshadowing which makes it all the more exciting. The question was not if, but when she would snap. I the comic went on a number of issues with just Phoenix so it takes a while for it to get into Dark Phoenix.
The cool part of this story is that its two stories into one. The first story that takes up half of the Dark Phoenix Saga finds the X-men facing off against the Hellfire Club. A handy defeat and pushed to the edge finds Jean using the limits of her power. Also thrown in a sub plot of manipulation by a mutant illusionist. You have a Jean Grey pushed mentally, emotionally, and physically. Yet still she doesn't fully crack completely. THe pacing is wildly different and makes it simply better. Jean's slow motions towards a darker side feels very natural. Phoenix and Jean feel one and the same.
Besides the pacing another big difference is that Xaviers tampering with her mind is negligible. Its didn't happen when she was little and doesn't sound like a major point at all. Its hinted at, but never made clear. Which comes into the biggest problem with this story. Glorious Retcons. Oh how you can ruin many things. So the bitch is this. Jean Grey wasn't evil she was possessed by a Phoenix Force. Not her actions at all blah blah blah. This was all dealt later in the late 80s. Bull fucking shit. Marvel lost some quality management after the 70's. Spider-Man was one of the lucky ones to get a revival.
Sorry for my mid rant. Back to the story. The comic is very grounded to begin with and feels natural. The playing around of themes of manipulation and personal freedom is when it is at its best. Where sort of falls apart is the confliction of endings. The writer wanted to make Phoenix a cosmic Avenger like Thor, but the other editors thought she was too powerful so they made her evil. Very evil. She apparently early on as Phoenix restarted some powerful alien thingy and saved the universe. Now she wants to reclaim that power and attempts it in a star. Ends up destroying a planet near by. It becomes clear her powers were altered and not there from the beginning. The themes are bleeding away and we are left with a sci fi story through and through.
By the end of it it feels like Jean being cured is a farce. A cop out. Like Batman forgiving Jean Paul Valley. But no she was going to be punished for her crimes. I thought the story was going for a wild dip as it already has, but it was a really great way to conclude the saga.
It provided open platform of consideration of what has really happened. An inner trial for Jean for each character. Some plot device honor battle is used and the X-men have to fight on the moon blah blah blah it was all a ruse so Jean could get weak and kill herself.
Kind of dark if it wasn't on the moon and with some space laser.
THe series does have Wolverine with a kill strike, but refusing it. Jean's self sacrifice was the right idea, but presented wrong. All in all leaving me kind of preferring the movie version of an ending.
I'm a little torn on this comic. It started off different and better then I expected and had some great design to it all, but became something else only to not be at all. My personal concept of Phoenix in the end is what I prefer to any adaption.
I like the struggle Jean has of who she is. I like the pacing of her turn. I like the more inventive nature of her powers. Using mental and physical attacks.
But i prefer the idea that Xavier dampened her mind at a young age then to her just getting it with cosmic rays. it has a whole new layer to her character. I can see how Scott and Jean connect. Both having uncontrollable power. I can see a bond through their problems.
out of the 3 i've experienced the story though the original int he end is the best of the bunch. The pacing and character work is far superior. Phoenix is the focus as should be, but given the time early on to really build it up.
In the mean time i was able to really connect with the x-men characters like collussus and nightcrawler. wolverine wasn't a huge focus but what we know of him is all in tact.
Does this make me think the movie is a travesty more then it is? No actually. I appreciate the newer elements to dark phoenix. With some more development it could create something really amazing.
If Vaughn continues First Class I think we can have a retcon of our own. Give Scott more attention. Create a tragic foreshadowing for Jean. He, getting a little carried away.
All I'm saying is that the decades since the comic it still has context. It's not perfect, but it is classic.