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Post by BackinBlack on Mar 23, 2016 18:58:35 GMT -5
Much like Man of Steel and Amazing Spider-Man 2, it seems like critics are unfairly tearing the movie apart. Except this time, it's worse and honestly bullshit. Now I know I haven't seen the movie of course, but the fan reaction has been very positive. Hell, the audience score is 82% on RT. I have a friend who went to a screening and gave it a 9.5 in his review, saying that a majority of fans will love it and that he knew critics wouldn't get it. Also, Newsarama even compiled some fan reviews, all positive: www.newsarama.com/28529-newsarama-readers-review-batman-v-superman-dawn-of-justice.htmlSo how can there be such a disconnect? I don't want to say "conspiracy", but how many critics do you think went in with their minds made up already? Hell, the main complaint I've seen one way or another is "it's not Marvel." At the risk of building myself up too much, I think this movie is going to be fucking awesome.
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Post by mr. excellent on Mar 23, 2016 19:07:06 GMT -5
I certainly hope so.
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Post by BackinBlack on Mar 24, 2016 21:39:36 GMT -5
Just got back. In my opinion, while I had like 4 problems with it, this movie is just short of a masterpiece. It's definitely fun (and does have jokes) and not boring like critics are saying, but it is treated very seriously. I can't wait to see it again Sunday.
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Post by mr. excellent on Mar 25, 2016 13:59:29 GMT -5
Awesome, glad you hold the movie in such high regard. My favorite review site Screen Rant says it's like Marvel's Iron Man 2, saying (in that particular reviewers opinion) it's an okay movie that prioritizes shared universe set up over layered characters and coherent story. Not sure I agree with that assessment of Iron Man 2, but I think I get the sentiment. Another trusty film enthusiast, John Campea, has said similar. I think it's crazy that Snyder was actually trying to really flesh out the motivations of the characters on both sides, explore their similarities and differences, gives himself a 2.5 hr movie (ultimate cut on the way), and is still getting criticized for not fleshing the characters out. Especially when, by Screen Rant's estimation, some might be bored with how much time is spent exploring ideological differences. Do we not get the sense of who these characters are by studying what makes them tick? I don't know. Can't wait to find out for myself though.
I read a few of the reviews that came out on Tuesday, and for the most part, was not offended. However, as more have come out, I continue to be bothered by the asswipes who claim that every new superhero movie is "proof that the genre needs a break" or "a small break from the genre's usual offerings". This includes those idiots who collectively sigh "not another superhero movie" or lament that superhero films prevent other types of films from being made, which is complete bull****. First off, there are enough "small break" good films in the genre to form a genre in and of themselves. Secondly, it's extremely self-important and pretentious to assume one's own lack of interest in something is enough to end an entire corner of the film industry for any amount of time. Third, it's stupid to hate an entire genre. Within every genre is something (or several things) for everyone. I mean really, can anyone honestly say they'd hate EVERY rom-com, or comedy, or drama, or biopic, action film, documentary, etc.? If so, they have some serious personal growth and experience to accumulate. Fourth, big blockbuster type movies aren't going anywhere any time soon. Were it not superhero movies, another type of film would dominate the landscape. Regardless of what type of movies are on top in terms of the box office, smaller films that examine the more intimate aspects of our humanity or less explored topics on film continue to be made. It doesn't matter who's making the most money, all types of film will still be made, nothing is being taken away by having super hero films in the spot light.
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Post by mr. excellent on Mar 26, 2016 6:47:29 GMT -5
Having seen the film now (several hours after publishing my post above), I actually came to a very different conclusion on it. However, I still stand by my appreciation that you and other fans have been able to find something valuable in what Snyder has crafted. After reading through a couple hours worth of spoiler articles, I'm pretty damn excited about what's to come, and I don't want to see the DCEU foiled before it has a chance to actually take off.
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Post by Webber3000 on Mar 26, 2016 17:40:38 GMT -5
Do you guys think fans might be blinded by their fandom? I haven't seen the film, but I spoke with Marco (Caveboy) earlier, and he very strongly disliked the film. We talked about many movies the past few years, and this was the very first time that he went as far as discouraging me from watching one. In his words: "Don't see it. Don't give them money." I suppose all opinions are amplified when big movies with large fan bases are at stake.
I normally don't think it's much of a tragedy if shitty films do well. The true tragedy is when good films do poorly. The counter-argument to what I just said is that when bad films are a financial success, it means that the people who watched them went there instead of watching some other, supposedly higher-quality film. I really doubt that that's the case. I don't think people normally have a movie quota; correct me if I'm wrong, but it's not like they feel that, every month or whatever, they must watch an exact number of movies they cannot go over or below. So as long as good movies can do well, they'll keep being made. It ain't the Transformers and the Pirates of the Caribbeans of the this world that're going to stop that.
This particular case, however, is different. Encouraging the DC cinematic universe to go on is to prevent the IP from potentially being put to better use. Reboots aren't the feared taboo they used to be. They happen faster than they did just a decade ago, and fans accept them with open arms now. Perhaps it's not ideal for Warner Bros. to switch gears after they've invested so much into their newborn franchise, but maybe it would be the right thing to do.
Who am I kidding, though? The movie's already doing phenomenally well, breaking records and whatnot. I don't feel happy or sad about that given that I haven't a proper, personal opinion on it. I didn't even actually read any reviews, because I usually like to avoid doing that before watching a film. But I'm torn. I know that my wallet is but a drop in the sea, but I'm hesitant about watching it. It's not okay for a crap film to have a pass just because it has the rights on iconic characters. I don't always agree with film critics, but I don't recall ever liking a film that had a score of around (or below) 30% on the Tomatometer. That said, there's a lot talk around the film, and I do want to join in with an opinion of my own. Gah!
What do you guys think? I know that, for the most part, you've enjoyed the film and I'm guessing that you would recommend it. But I still want to ask... Might it be the novelty of it? Do you think you might not enjoy the movie in a couple years as you do today? Or maybe it's the haters who are overreacting in face of the success of the genre. Maybe it'll grow on them in a couple years and they'll pretend to have been fans from day 1 when they talk to their grandchildren about this then cult-classic. I'd love to hear your opinion on it.
P.S.: I completely agree with what you said about some people's opposition to the entire superhero movie genre, Excellent.
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Post by mr. excellent on Mar 26, 2016 18:41:35 GMT -5
First and foremost, please do us all a favor and plug the boards to Caveboy. Hasn’t been the same without him. To address what you were saying; I actually gave the film a 6.5/10 in the Rate the Last Movie You Saw thread, which is pretty low on my scale as I tend to be generous with the numbers. I totally feel that conflict you’re having though, and I love the question: Do you support a bad film for the novelty of having the IP around? To that I would normally say no very emphatically. However, in this case I firmly believe that the creative forces behind the DCEU have the best interest of these characters at heart. I also feel that enough worked, some of it extremely well, to get me very enthusiastic for the future with this set up established. It’s Amazing Spider-man 2 all over again, except this time the future is realistically very bright whereas with Spider-man and Sony it was wishful thinking. Following film franchises oddly mirrors following sports. You get so emotionally invested that sometimes it is worth riding out a bad season or 2 (films). Maybe with a change in management and a change up on the roster, the team will start to shine again, but in doing so, it’s not the roster you’ve come to know. We spend hours over the years reading articles, clicking on interviews and trying to get to know the faces of our favorite franchises. Starting over again is tough, and after a while, I’ve gotten a little more cold to the process. It’s so emotionally draining. But you do it for the good of the team, or in this case, the characters we love. I see enough promise in what has been laid forth to not throw in the towel, and because of the promise I see, I’m happy that the film is doing well. Do I think you’ll like it? No. However, you did like Amazing Spider-man 2 more than Winter Soldier, so when it comes to you and movies it’s always guess work for me. The group I went with are as big into DC as I am into Marvel, and while their opinions of the film ranged from bad to outright disdain, they’re excited for the future of the franchise too. Not because of novelty, but because they liked what they saw. At the fear of sounding repetitive, that’s me included.
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Post by BackinBlack on Mar 26, 2016 18:52:58 GMT -5
I don't think it's just the novelty of having Batman and Superman, and even Wonder Woman, together for the first time on film. Yes, it's a big deal, but what I liked about the film was the characters as individuals. We have Superman becoming who we know him to be while still being a figure of controversy. We have a new version of Batman that's experienced, hardened, and moves like we've never seen before. Wonder Woman, as expected, is badass and I am even more excited for her solo movie. Lex is very different, but he still has the sadistic side we know him for. Even if these characters weren't all in the film together, they would still be interesting and fun to watch.
As for if you should see it, I'm recommending it to everyone, even those who weren't fans of Man of Steel (which I feel is redeemed by BVS) or are hating on this film without even seeing it for themselves. I feel it may change people's minds if they actually watched it. Even if you don't like it, you'll know you didn't because you actually watched it.
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Post by mr. excellent on Mar 27, 2016 16:13:30 GMT -5
Warner Bros responds to Batman v. Superman's Success www.comicbookmovie.com/batman_vs_superman/warner-bros-respond-to-batman-v-supermans-success-theres-a-a132701I take this as both good and bad news. The issues this movie has are real. It's not just hot air, though there's a lot of hot air to be had for sure. By giving Warners money to see the film, as a consumer I'm showing interest in seeing their product develop over time. Don't start from scratch again, just build, improve, make it better. I'm not saying "It was perfect, don't change a thing." The fan reaction should be clear on that, and certainly the audience rating on sites like RT has gone down to a more realistic number. Warners is making it sound like they think the audience loves this movie. Warner's also claims that the movie doesn't take itself seriously, and that it's just a fun time at the movies. I don't fully agree. Zack Snyder wasn't just trying to make a movie based on comics. He's trying to make a movie based on THE comic. It's not like Marvel adapting several popular story lines from their catalog to make an interesting movie. Snyder took that historic graphic novel that changed things for Batman and Superman, and tried to do something similar in movie form. The way he frames his shots and uses that crazy artistic visual style he has, juxtaposed with the sounds of a symphony... come on. This movie took itself seriously. Snyder wasn't JUST trying to make a popcorn flick. It's supposed to resonate with you. Don't get me wrong, I commend him for that. Perhaps these are the beginnings of a new business model with regard to launching multiple connected franchises. Who knows? It's like you said Webber, maybe years from now people will look back and pretend that they loved this movie when it came out. I already think I'll enjoy it more the second go around, but that still doesn't mean the flaws aren't there. Hopefully Warners addresses the issues this movie has moving forward.
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Post by Webber3000 on Mar 27, 2016 19:37:47 GMT -5
First and foremost, please do us all a favor and plug the boards to Caveboy. Hasn’t been the same without him. To address what you were saying; I actually gave the film a 6.5/10 in the Rate the Last Movie You Saw thread, which is pretty low on my scale as I tend to be generous with the numbers. I totally feel that conflict you’re having though, and I love the question: Do you support a bad film for the novelty of having the IP around? To that I would normally say no very emphatically. However, in this case I firmly believe that the creative forces behind the DCEU have the best interest of these characters at heart. I also feel that enough worked, some of it extremely well, to get me very enthusiastic for the future with this set up established. It’s Amazing Spider-man 2 all over again, except this time the future is realistically very bright whereas with Spider-man and Sony it was wishful thinking. Following film franchises oddly mirrors following sports. You get so emotionally invested that sometimes it is worth riding out a bad season or 2 (films). Maybe with a change in management and a change up on the roster, the team will start to shine again, but in doing so, it’s not the roster you’ve come to know. We spend hours over the years reading articles, clicking on interviews and trying to get to know the faces of our favorite franchises. Starting over again is tough, and after a while, I’ve gotten a little more cold to the process. It’s so emotionally draining. But you do it for the good of the team, or in this case, the characters we love. I see enough promise in what has been laid forth to not throw in the towel, and because of the promise I see, I’m happy that the film is doing well. Do I think you’ll like it? No. However, you did like Amazing Spider-man 2 more than Winter Soldier, so when it comes to you and movies it’s always guess work for me. The group I went with are as big into DC as I am into Marvel, and while their opinions of the film ranged from bad to outright disdain, they’re excited for the future of the franchise too. Not because of novelty, but because they liked what they saw. At the fear of sounding repetitive, that’s me included. Haha, I have been asking him to come back! Hopefully he visits soon enough. And I completely get your sentiment. Any industry with many stakeholders feels like following sports. Although we represent a single voice in a huge crowd, a single vote in the ballot, or a single handful of cash in a billion dollars, it's hard not to be engaged by the direction things are going. And come on, the Amazing Spider-Man 2 is a great coming of age story! Shame about the villains though... Could've been a great film, too. I don't think it's just the novelty of having Batman and Superman, and even Wonder Woman, together for the first time on film. Yes, it's a big deal, but what I liked about the film was the characters as individuals. We have Superman becoming who we know him to be while still being a figure of controversy. We have a new version of Batman that's experienced, hardened, and moves like we've never seen before. Wonder Woman, as expected, is badass and I am even more excited for her solo movie. Lex is very different, but he still has the sadistic side we know him for. Even if these characters weren't all in the film together, they would still be interesting and fun to watch. As for if you should see it, I'm recommending it to everyone, even those who weren't fans of Man of Steel (which I feel is redeemed by BVS) or are hating on this film without even seeing it for themselves. I feel it may change people's minds if they actually watched it. Even if you don't like it, you'll know you didn't because you actually watched it. Yeah, that is the most compelling argument... As of now, it's my sense if principle going up against my curiosity... And my curiosity might just win.
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Post by mr. excellent on Mar 27, 2016 22:54:42 GMT -5
Funny thing is, the more I think about it, the closer the comparisons are to TASM 2. Webb treated Peter, Gwen, Aunt May, and Harry as though they were real people. The movie felt like it was jigsawed together with 2 or 3 other stories rather than 1 cohesive whole. The tone was all over the place because the world building stuff felt very cartoony compared the the genuine emotion and chemistry between the aforementioned characters. I loved the coming of age part. Hell, I recently watched only those scenes, and then gave it a ridiculously high 10/10 ranking in the Rate the Last Movie thread.
BvS grounds Batman and Superman but makes Lex and some of the other parts of the movie feel like a cartoon. Rather than jigsawing 2 or 3 different stories together, BvS juggles about 5 of them, resulting in a wildly shifting narrative tone. The realism infused into characters like Bruce Wayne, Clark Kent and the Daily Planet staff just doesn't mix with the sci-fi machinations in the plot. Not to say it couldn't have, but yeah.
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Post by Webber3000 on Mar 28, 2016 21:16:35 GMT -5
You make it sound like it's some sort of "too many cooks in the kitchen" type situation. Think that might've been the case? Or is the director to (fully) blame?
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Post by mr. excellent on Mar 29, 2016 0:43:48 GMT -5
I'm thinking it must've been. But it's not exactly like Marc Webb's situation, where word has gotten out on him being overruled by the powers that be. Webb seems to have rolled over a lot to try and make Sony happy, hoping that his character work with the actors would be the shining light of the final product, which was the case for some. I think Snyder has more pull though, didn't roll over as much as it were, and ultimately had more power in his situation. Definitely think he could've made a better film it it weren't on him to introduce an entire slate of films, but I also think he was just as jazzed to be the guy to do it.
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Post by mr. excellent on Apr 3, 2016 18:12:00 GMT -5
Batman v. Superman is expecting a big drop over the weekend www.comicbookmovie.com/batman_vs_superman/box-office-as-many-expected-batman-v-superman-is-facing-a-big-a132963There have been a lot of reactive and timely articles that were published to fan the flame between critics and hard core fans. Headlines to the effect of "Does BvS's Success Prove That Critics Really are Snobs?" Warner Bros. was quick to release as statement about the divide between fans and critics. It was a smart move, perhaps unnecessary, but one that worried me. People who follow these sorts of things know you have to look at the long term, or at the very least 2nd week. While the jury still isn't in, I think this is very telling. This movie does have its problems, and though the vitriolic response from many critics was undeserving, that doesn't mean things couldn't be improved. I'm just hoping that the WB isn't going to be like Sony when it comes to DC. Last week I didn't think so, but with time comes paranoia. Immediately after Deadpool's critical and commercial success, WB announces that Zack Snyder has an R-rated cut of BvS. A week ago, there was an announcement that David Ayer's movie was undergoing rewrites/reshoots to make the film lighter in tone. Maybe it's nothing. Snyder did an Ultimate cut for Watchmen (which was pretty cool). I also doubt there'd be that little thought into planning something as big as an ultimate cut to a film they've already taken so long to craft. That pesky paranoia though. No, I think the R-rated cut was already in the books. It's the Suicide Squad rumor that worries me though. David Ayer has a few misses on his list, but the man has proven himself with dark material. I do hope that WB's response to their current product's release is something that'll take longer to see. Suicide Squad is pretty much in the can. Focus on the future, not what's already done. Maybe I'm being hypocritical about WB changing face. But there's a difference between planning several weeks of reshoots into all your movies (the way Marvel does) vs. making last second changes out of panic (a la Sony).
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Post by Webber3000 on Apr 3, 2016 22:27:38 GMT -5
Regarding the drop, I heard numbers like 70%, which sounds terrible. That said, I looked up some other big movies, and after several minutes of research (my researching skills suck), I found out that the average week 2 drop for a big blockbuster movie seems to be around 50-60%. So 70% is bad, but not as awful as it may sound.
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